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    [Crazy theory]The possibility of the existence of the counterpart of the “New Demon"

    The possibility of the existence of the counterpart of the “New Demon”, and Mercury conspiracy theory

    (I will apologize for my English first, because it is not my native language, there may have many errors in this article. If it is interfere your reading, please forgave me and show me the error part, I will try to amend it. Thank you.)

    In Flag 65, Diana introduced herself as the heavenly being, counterpart of the Old Demons of the Hell. The Old Demons “feed on negative energy, on the other hand, goddesses grow with the power of love.”


    This counter relationship is almost perfect, except one thing: The Hell is no longer Old Demons’ territory today, The New Demons dominate there now. If we want to balance this equation, one wonderful possibility is open up: will there have New Gods as the counterpart of New Demons, and could they be the ruler of Heaven now?

    This hypothesis has no first hand proof, but it really could solve some question. First, why Diana never show any aspiration to contact Heaven? Even the situation is extremely urgent now, the idea in her mind is assemble her six sister, but not call Heaven for help. Don’t forget, this solution needs their sacrifice. Maybe they all have strong belief, but why not try to find an easy way to defeat Vintage? After all, they are not Old Demon, with Heaven’s force, stop Vintage’s plot shouldn’t be a big problem.

    One explanation is that all heavenly being was dead in ArmageMachina, 300 years ago, Diana and her sisters are the last survivor of Heaven, though it is a tough argument in TWGOK, where Heaven, Hell and Earth all have their essential function.


    If there has no other heavenly being in the realm of heaven, the big recycling mechanism will collapse, and all three realms can’t keep operation. The possibility of New Demons assumes this responsibility is also low, otherwise they can easily supplant Heaven, and through Old Demons’ plan to solve their energy problem. For the reason above, account there still has a regular and capable organization in Heaven is legitimate.

    Another explanation is that Diana doesn’t have enough power to make contact with Heaven. But if she and three other sisters (already have wings) even don’t have this level of power, it is harder to believe they could defeat so many level 4 runaway spirit by themself.

    Under this speculation, there may have another reason to explain why Diana never try to contact Heaven. There still has other heavenly being in Heaven, but they are not the same “God/Goddess” as Diana and her sisters.

    Let us cast our minds back to 300 years ago, the war between Heaven and Hell. In Hell, the war ends with the New Demons’ victory, and the fall of Old Demons. Couldn’t the same thing happen in Heaven? The Old Gods (Jupiter Sisters generation) exhausted their strength in the war, and be supplant by New Gods. In fact, this is almost some kind of tradition in Greek/Roman myth, Like Cronus castrated his father Uranus, or Zeus banished his father Cronus. The gods of Olympus rule Heaven by overthrow Titans, this kind of thing definitely could happen again, or already happened, in TWGOK.

    Now, we may have an explain for Diana’s action that sounds reasonable. If the ruler of Heaven now is not gods/goddesses like Diana, but some kind of new heavenly being likes the counterpart of the “New Demon”, their attitude to Jupiter sisters is predictable: root out, they must be root out. Through these New Gods’ perspective, Jupiter Sisters maybe is a much bigger threat than Vintage and Old Demons.

    This hypothesis could also help to explain why New Demons’ history textbook doesn’t mention even a little about Heaven’s role in the war 300 years ago:obliterate the history of Old Gods and Jupiter sisters may benefit both New Gods and New Demons, whom want to ensure their dominate of their respective realm. For New Demons’ side, winning the war by themselves and only themselves obviously could help them to raise their new political power’s legality; but if the ruler of Heaven still the same gods which sacrifice their own fellow citizen to help New Demons defeat Old Demons, it is hard to believe they will connive this kind of profanity. Under this hypothesis, this problem could be resolve, that New Gods don’t appreciate Old Gods glorious history either.

    Now, this scene appeared in my imagination: 300 years ago, the war broke out, Old Gods invaded hell to help New Demons fight against Old Demons. But the Old Demons were too powerful, The Old Gods paid so terrible a price, finally the Jupiter Sisters have no other choice, but to sacrifice themselves to perish together with the Old Demons. After that, the Hell belongs to New Demons, some New Gods overthrow the weakened Old Gods and rule the Heaven. Happy End.


    Attention: the content below is a new hypothesis based on the hypothesis above, it is more speculative.


    But, the history and myth tell us no former rulers will satisfy to be replaced. We all see that Old Demons don’t satisfy and are trying to reborn, even though most of the New Demons are squelch them as much as they can. What about Old Gods? Or, more accurately, what about the six Jupiter Sisters?

    Until now, the five goddesses we already seen looks satisfy of their role, the sacrifice used for seal the Old Demon. And they looks like willing to do it again. But the sixth of these sister, Mercury, could her have some different idea?

    From the speaking of the goddesses we already seen, if the seal functioned properly, them and most of the Old Demons (runaway spirit) should be buried underground forever, don’t have any chance to release again. But now, this seal has already been undone. The cause could be external, or internal. If one of the goddesses didn’t want to be buried underground forever, maybe she could do something to their magic, let this seal be untied after several years, release herself, other goddesses and Old Demons. The other five goddesses, I am sorry to say, didn’t looks smart enough to do this. So, the one with most of the suspicion, is definitely the most mysterious one, Mercury.

    Please forgive me to have an interruption here, and guess what will happen to solve nowadays urgent situation.

    Through conquer Ayumi. Success rate: low. TWGOK already spent 10+ flag on this conquest, for a normal success conquer it is already too long, and some reader may feel weary but not excited for a traditional end. On the other hand, after Keima’s last failure in flag 166-167, he has no any improve on skill or spirit. Succeed here doesn’t in accordance with shonen manga pattern. Meanwhile, even he could conquer Ayumi, let Mercury spread her wings, how could she stop Vintage’s plan, as the other three goddesses with wings failed? If Mercury is just another normal goddess, her chance of save the desperate situation is negligible. Or, she has some kind of special magic that could rescue the captured goddesses, and gather six goddesses together could bring them some extra power to seal the Old Demons again. And what's on after that? The end of TWGOK? I don’t think this day will coming so soon, particularly after author show us a lot of new TWGOK background recently.

    Akari or Nikaido save the world. Success rate: low. 99% of the manga shot is on Keima, but after that world is saved by others. It is not reasonable, at least in manga world. No matter win or lose, the main impetus should come through our protagonist. The others could help, like Haqua, but shouldn’t poach on his preserve.

    Keima and goddesses lost completely, Vintage wins, and Old Hell reborn on Earth. It will be very exciting, but the keynote of this manga will be changed completely if this kind of things happens. I am highly doubt this possibility.

    On Keima’s side, he had already risked their whole fortune on conquer Ayumi, namely on Mercury. So, no matter what happened after, she should be the core of next scenario.


    But, for nowadays situation, if Mercury is just another normal goddess, there has no chance to solve the problem. I guessed that Mercury has her own plot from relatively earlier part (flag163, she didn’t answer Mars’ call), but there still one piece I can’t lock into this jigsaw puzzle: why doesn’t she care about her own energy recover? She may the only goddess who doesn’t encourage her host’s love. Maybe she has some special way to recover energy, no matter what Keima or Ayumi do, is not important? But Keima’s action should be the main impetus of manga, or all these 10+ flags are just some kind of waste. At last, some kind of evil inspiration shows me the way to fitted together this jigsaw: Mercury already gave herself into the dark side of force, she want to absorb Ayumi’s hate to recover her energy!

    I’ll say this kind of thing didn’t rare in ACG, novel or movie. Several brothers/sisters, even most of them are naive in a certain extent, one should be smart and sophisticated. Sometimes, in the war, one of them is a traitor. And the being grow with the power of love turn to feed on negative energy is even more common. I am not say these things happened everywhere, but not rare. It is hard to believe it took me so long to find this conclusion.

    Finally, a whole picture came into sight. Mercury not only didn’t support Ayumi’s love; in fact it is the other way round, she is trying to undermine Keima’s conquer.



    Mercury’s word, sounds like try to relieve Ayumi’s pain, but the result is just on the contrary. Her purpose is make Keima’s conquer on Ayumi completely failed. At midnight, when Keima’s final confess break down, Ayumi knows he has no love on her, the heartache will reach the extreme point, and then Mercury will expand her black wings, and push the story to a new level!

    One question is, won’t this result be worse than Vintage’s victory? Not quite. Even Mercury is a villain, it is not means she is on the same front of Vintage. If the first hypothesis is true, as an Old God, she definitely won’t happy to see Old Hell’s victory. She sacrificed 300 years ago with her sisters, may just for this reason. But obviously she won’t happy to see New Gods and New Demons rule which based on their sacrifice. The things in her mind should be the wish to reclaim Heaven, even use Old Demons’ force, or let the Earth or Hell pay the price.

    So, if the Vintage’s plan succeeded, there will be no space for her to bargain with Old Demons. It means Mercury must sabotage Vintage’s plan, reach a consensus with some of the Old Demons first (Vintage may have some way to control Old Demons, they don’t seems like the imp whom enjoy the status as Old Demons’ minion), then reclaim Heaven and Hell back to their old ruler, divide the Earth, it looks like a real evil plot, and let those background which author throw to us be used completely.

    Sounds crazy? Yes, but it is an exciting way to propel the story. There are two scenario readers waited for a long time, Diana’s wings and Mercury’s show. All leave lots of suspense to the readers. If these two scenarios be used to solve one problem (Vintage), it’s a little waste. If the story develops like this: Keima’s conquer failed, Mercury spread her giant black wings, although Vintage’s plan be stopped, Keima is in great danger. At this time, Diana realizes her and Tenri’s love seeks no reward, spread great white wings, after that:

    “You would have made an excellent disciple. Much could have been taught to you… So that you would know the power of the dark side hate.”

    “the power of the dark side hate is the easy path… more seductive…
    … But not more powerful.”

    Hum. Only the result of this battle could tell us which side is more powerful.


    P.S. I wrote this article after flag178, after that, another five flag has past, but few things changed. I still believe this Keima’s conquer is bound to fail, just the way may not like what I imaged. It may because I don’t want to see this manga ended soon, through my view, the manga’s situation is just like the ep3 of StarWars, and Order66 is near. Well, no matter what, we will see what is in author’s mind soon.

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    If this was the case, Mel would've done this already when Keima was conquering them the first time around since they all had their own problems/issues throwing them into darkness.

    I don't think Heaven has changed at all too, It's still regular heaven with the same gods as before (or so we think). I believe it was only Hell who had to be reborn and locked up.

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    I like it.

    There is also Demeter.
    I HAVE NO SHAME. VICTORY, AT ANY COST!

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    About the first part:

    New demons isn't a new race of demon. Good and evil demons cohabited hell, the evil ones ruled it but their main forces were sealed. The good ones assumed power and decided to call it 'New Hell' to not be associated with the previous government, and so the habitants passed to be knew as new demons (like japanese were called eleven in Code Gueass). The evil ones who weren't sealed (wifes, children and maybe materminds) created a rebellion wanting the sealed ones and/or the old government back, called Vintage.

    Also, Diana said that the Jupiter sisters are like royalty in heaven, and so other heavenly beings exists and they weren't killed in the war or she would had said so.


    About the second part:

    Mercury not wanting be sealed again have good chances of happen and she growing powers from Ayumi's sadness is also possible.
    I liked the theory and didn't think it was much crazy.

    But i don't think she would really do it, because weiss and goddess regain their body and power through birth, and so she would support the wedding.
    And wings aren't enough power, she certainly are way weaker than when she had a body. They could even defeat a couple of demons, when they could seal at least 10.000 of the most powerful demons of old hell. (there were more than 60.000 weiss sealed)
    Last edited by RennanNT; 04-05-2012 at 05:43 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RennanNT View Post
    About the first part:

    New demons isn't a new race of demon. Good and evil demons cohabited hell, the evil ones ruled it but their main forces were sealed. The good ones assumed power and decided to call it 'New Hell' to not be associated with the previous government, and so the habitants passed to be knew as new demons (like japanese were called eleven in Code Gueass). The evil ones who weren't sealed (wifes, children and maybe materminds) created a rebellion wanting the sealed ones and/or the old government back, called Vintage.

    Also, Diana said that the Jupiter sisters are like royalty in heaven, and so other heavenly beings exists and they weren't killed in the war or she would had said so.


    About the second part:

    Mercury not wanting be sealed again have good chances of happen and she growing powers from Ayumi's sadness is also possible.
    I liked the theory and didn't think it was much crazy.

    But i don't think she would really do it, because weiss and goddess regain their body and power through birth, and so she would support the wedding.
    And wings aren't enough power, she certainly are way weaker than when she had a body. They could even defeat a couple of demons, when they could seal at least 10.000 of the most powerful demons of old hell. (there were more than 60.000 weiss sealed)
    Are there demi-gods in this universe? Can half-human, half-god beings exist?
    I HAVE NO SHAME. VICTORY, AT ANY COST!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Muddy Biddy View Post
    Are there demi-gods in this universe? Can half-human, half-god beings exist?
    Its hard to say, since it wasn't much explained.

    What i know is that health ovules are needed, and the demon/god is the one (re)born, not their children, and with their power restored (from the ghost arc + Diana's words).

    It wasn't said if is the demon (after reaching some level) or a human guy who will fecundate the human girl, but considering the goddess are female (they call themselves as sisters) i think is the second option.

    In this case the baby is human, but the spirit turn him into a demon/god with magic? or what make them gods/demons is the spirit and not their body? What they will be called? It takes 9 months too?... The World Wakaki Only Knows.

    We will have to wait to discover this.
    Last edited by RennanNT; 04-05-2012 at 06:40 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RennanNT View Post
    About the first part:

    New demons isn't a new race of demon. Good and evil demons cohabited hell, the evil ones ruled it but their main forces were sealed. The good ones assumed power and decided to call it 'New Hell' to not be associated with the previous government, and so the habitants passed to be knew as new demons (like japanese were called eleven in Code Gueass). The evil ones who weren't sealed (wifes, children and maybe materminds) created a rebellion wanting the sealed ones and/or the old government back, called Vintage.
    I don't think Old Demons and New Demons are same race. Even just a level4 runaway spirit, an Old Demon didn't regain his body, show much more powerful force than several New Demons (Flag101).

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    Agree with you.ONE,just one, almost revived old devil got as big as a Super Robot.Makes you think that TWGOK univrese isn't as underpowered as it seems to makes itself out to be at first.To think that once upon a time,these six goddesses were able to defeat more than 60000 of these devils.Can't wait for the epic battle.
    Last edited by genesic123; 04-05-2012 at 09:48 PM.

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    And even Vintage member didn't show any ability of absorb negative emotion to gain energy. Although they have horn, they looks much more like human compare those grotesque Old Demons.
    As for why Mercury didn't sabotage Keima's conquer before, I guess Ayumi's love didn't reach the point her expect. One of the main concept in TWGOK is "hate" could turn into "love", of course, this applies vice versa as well. If Mercury really want to absorb Ayumi's hate to recover power, waiting Ayumi's love get max, then turn it into hate must be the most "efficient" way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nebo View Post
    I don't think Old Demons and New Demons are same race. Even just a level4 runaway spirit, an Old Demon didn't regain his body, show much more powerful force than several New Demons (Flag101).
    The weiss were the Hell's army, and the RSS are a bunch of girls newly graduated. Nikaido even call them feeble little girls.
    Also, the power of the demons apparently cames from the bad feelings, but they can't absorb it with physical contact (or the goddesses would absorb happiness from others too). In the spirit form, they can get in contact with their host heart and can absorb from it, but demons with body need something to do so. While that Lv4 can drink directly form the source, the RSS girls have only what the stingy new Hell give to them.
    That one was giant because of Hinoki (like the others had their unique phenomenon) and that strange form was probably because it went berserk and wasn't controlling the magic that made that body and so it didn't reflect its real form.

    Other things to support to my opinion:

    - Dokuro says that should had married before that war, since there's no men in new Hell. But if there's female, then there's males too. Where did they go exactly when "the other race" was being sealed? Killed by old hell? then at least one girl would have resentment towards the ones who killed her father. Not mentioning this isn't TWGOK style (no one even died til now, a massacre would be too heavy for it).

    - Shari in the previous chapter (150) said "it like the the horned are friend of the spirits", "the time they had power is history". Meaning they had good positions or influence in the government, right? If they were vassals or allies with old Hell, they probably would fight together in the war (and be sealed too), but if they weren't, why they are trying to bring "the other race" back? just hate because Hell became lame?
    Last edited by RennanNT; 04-06-2012 at 08:58 AM.

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  21. #11
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    New Devils and Old devils are the same. Old devils merely had horns and even other weird mutations like Gira. New Devils are just the next generation of "Old Devils" minus the horns. At most, it is possible that a system of "class" whereby the Horned Devils had more influence and perhaps look down to the non-horned devils. This results in the new devils forming an alliance with Heaven, and thus if they eliminate the Old devils, the new devils will take over Hell.

    As for your new god theory, its unlikely. Remember when Apollo made a warning to her sisters when she was attacked by Fiore ? Perhaps the seal is also seen by Heaven and thus, since the Jupiter Sisters are considered "royalty" and probably had more powers than normal ones, could it be that Apollo's message had made Heaven extremely wary of New Hell since the message is written as "Our Friends have betrayed us, do not trust anyone" (or something like that). thus, Heaven becomes suspicious of New Hell and decides not to give too much info or more likely, Apollo's message made a seal to prevent Heaven from interfering ?

    All in all, you're overthinking.

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    In my opinion, everything in the 1st paragraph is right except this:
    Quote Originally Posted by the p-man 2 View Post
    Old devils merely had horns and even other weird mutations like Gira. New Devils are just the next generation of "Old Devils" minus the horns.
    In my opinion, as humankind have different hairs, colors, eyes, etc. the devils have things like horns or a 3rd eye.
    Maybe there's something like the horend ones having more magical power or something, but they aren't a different race.
    If it was, i think Shari would be more clear about it, with a "old demons shouldn't be in RSS" or something. Isn't like "horned = old devil" would be a useful revelation in the future after all Shari had said, so why Wakaki-sensei would left ambiguous?
    Also, horned losed their power but Vintage are still very influente, meaning a lot of powerful hornless devils on it, what reduce even more the chances of old devils being only the horned.

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    There are men in new hell,see the Sumire(ramen girl) arc,where Elsie asks a hellian guy about how to eat ramen,only to get eaten up by a dragon.I don't think that the theory that old hellians are different should by completely dissmissed yet. Dokuro was most likely talking about the fact that she cannot reproduce.Horned devils are not necessrily old devils.I think that we will fiind this out only when we see the Epic Weiss Army show up.
    Last edited by genesic123; 04-09-2012 at 09:04 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by genesic123 View Post
    Dokuro was most likely talking about the fact that she cannot reproduce.
    No, she was talking about chances of getting a husband, not about having childs. She even said "My chances of marriage is... damn it..." after that.
    The "There's no men in new Hell" wasn't necessarily literal. Even so, that phrase of hers means that they became very scarce after hell became New Hell, and the fact that we saw dozen of women and just that elder support it (also, japanese can be very generic on genre, and till there the elder's genre wouldn't change anything, so i'm not that sure that it was really a 'he' or the translator just assumed it).

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    I was rereading and found this: http://manga.redhawkscans.com/reader.../0/134/page/17

    Fiore says "I won't be defeated by the likes of you new devils", meaning that she considers herself an old devil and Nora a new devil. I think this is enough proof to affirm that there's no biological difference between new and old devils.

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    Not necessarily,cause she could have said it as a matter of belief rather than actual biological matter.Fiore is a new devil,just like Haqua.Not much is known about old hell to new hellians.The history of the Goddesses was not known to the loose souls team.Vintage also do not know the exact number of goddesses, thus for all we know,Fiore herself may not understand the situation.
    The loose souls look too monstrous to be just biologically the same as new devils.The gigantic loose soul was not just an illusion,its part of the process of its revival.The difference old and new devils may not limited to just values.

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    Quote Originally Posted by genesic123 View Post
    The loose souls look too monstrous to be just biologically the same as new devils.The gigantic loose soul was not just an illusion,its part of the process of its revival.The difference old and new devils may not limited to just values.
    If i have some time later, i will improve this and add more things, but basically:
    1 - In Yui's arc, part of the weiss 'body' took Yui's form, so we know that its form is chosen by the weisses, not by their real form. And that spider with 10 hands form certainly was way better to fight or run, thus the choice.
    2 - They don't have a body, so that physical form is created by their magical powers, and they obviously can make bigger bodies if they become stronger. As they don't have much conscious to talk fluently or cast spells, their only weapons are physical strength and their useful forms (like a lot of paws or a smoke with tentacles).
    3 - The only weiss that didn't show an human-like face was Hinoki's and it was in berserk (and we know how manga's characters in berserk can assume inhuman form, principally when they can freely change their form).

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    This matter still needs further investigation so let it stew for a while

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    Quote Originally Posted by RennanNT View Post
    I was rereading and found this: http://manga.redhawkscans.com/reader.../0/134/page/17

    Fiore says "I won't be defeated by the likes of you new devils", meaning that she considers herself an old devil and Nora a new devil. I think this is enough proof to affirm that there's no biological difference between new and old devils.
    But in flag 138, you could find this:http://manga.redhawkscans.com/reader...n/0/138/page/3

    Vulcan said the spell Fiore used not a true spell of the Weiss, but merely an imitation. I think it is the proof that Vintage is not the real Old Devils, but some new devils be cheated on the contrary.
    Last edited by Nebo; 04-22-2012 at 05:27 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nebo View Post
    But in flag 138, you could find this:http://manga.redhawkscans.com/reader...n/0/138/page/3

    Vulcan said the spell Fiore used not a true spell of the Weiss, but merely an imitation. I think it is the proof that Vintage is not the real Old Devils, but some new devils be cheated on the contrary.
    It means that the spells are in different levels, what is expected from Garbagiore Fiore, not necessarily that none in Vintage can use it.
    If it is like you say, there's no need for the "true", just "this isn't a spell of the weiss, it is merely an imitation" would hold that meaning.
    Last edited by RennanNT; 04-23-2012 at 07:57 AM.

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    Apollo has stated that Fiore is a new devil.And Haqua also stated that Vintage is made up of new devils who believed in old hell's power and glory.Fiore being a new devil shouldn't even be an issue.

    Now i think about it,as a soul is not a exactly human, a weiss is not exacty an ''old devil''. We shouldn't use the normal weiss to gauge who is a new or old devil.However, since the monster like, giganitc loose soul is the midpoint beween revival and old devil(not that Hinoki form,but the monster form,when Keima went inside),it is still valid to use that to gauge the nature of an ''old devil''.
    Last edited by genesic123; 04-25-2012 at 09:25 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by genesic123 View Post
    Apollo has stated that Fiore is a new devil.And Haqua also stated that Vintage is made up of new devils who believed in old hell's power and glory.Fiore being a new devil shouldn't even be an issue.

    Now i think about it,as a soul is not a exactly human, a weiss is not exacty an ''old devil''. We shouldn't use the normal weiss to gauge who is a new or old devil.However, since the monster like, giganitc loose soul is the midpoint beween revival and old devil(not that Hinoki form,but the monster form,when Keima went inside),it is still valid to use that to gauge the nature of an ''old devil''.
    The issue wasn't Fiore being a new devil or not, but if new devils and old devils are different races or just different ideologies (like capitalists and socialists are all human and you will guess that someone living in a capitalist country is a capitalist till he say/show the contrary).

    The way that she talked is of someone who doesn't think of herself as a new devil, and i used it as an argument that its just ideologies and not races.
    Nebo understood from that dialog in his post that a "true spell of the weiss" can't be used, only imitated, by new devils and so that they are different races.

    But as you said, i will let it stew for a while. I was sure about my point of view on the beginning, but since that i didn't found definitive proof, i will classify it as just a possibility. That said, i think no one here will go WTF anymore whatever happens in relation to this matter, so the discussion about race or ideology already served its purpose.

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